Valid men vs not valid debana kote

by Russian Kendo Guide reader

The situation:

In shiai one person makes a valid men strike. At that moment his or her opponent makes not valid debana kote strike (by not valid I mean without zanshin or without some other required elements of datotsu).

Does the abortive attempt (debana kote) make men strike not so clear and so not valid (no one gets point) or should the men strike be counted in this case (first person gets point)?

Thank you in advance for your answer.

Answer: Thank you for your post. If men is a valid cut, then it should be valid. There should not be a reason not to be valid.

If they strike at the same time and both strikes are valid, then they may be cancelled out.  But if one is valid, it should be valid.
Hope this helps.

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May 11, 2011
by: Mario (Brazil)

I think that was the question. Sometimes dekote was not so good to be an ippon but it hits the target and before (or at the same time) opponent?s men uchi.  

Is this a reason to not give an ippon to the men uchi? I asked this same question for some Brazilian sensei and didn't manage to get a conclusive answer.

According to them, it depends on a lot of shinpan and the energy and confidence of both kenshi at the moment of strikes.

Sorry for my poor English. And congratulation for your website. Totemo omoshirokute, benri desu!

Answer: Thank you for your question and compliment!
Suppose that all the shinpan have a good view of both strikes; men and dekote, and both competitors satisfy all the requirements of a valid cut.

Under such circumstance, if both strikes hit their targets at the same time, they should be cancelled out, i.e. no one gets a point. When one hits his/her target before the other one, then he/she gets a point.

Now if you think about the nature of dekote, it should be executed when their opponent is just about to move. So theoretically dekote must be hit before the other one hits men. Is this clear?

Therefore, in men vs. dekote, men is almost 100% valid, not dekote.

Apr 19, 2011
by: Anonymous

The keyword was "valid" or more normally from shiai rules 'yuko datotsu' That indicates that the de-gote was not sufficient to render the men not a yuko datotsu.

Kendo-Guide.Com: If kote is hit before men, kote is of course valid.

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